John Johnston - JJ
JS McLennan Jr. - McL

Tape 1 Side A

JJ - This is John Johnston in conversation with John Stewart McLennan Jr. talking about his father and his own memories of his father's life and times. And I would begin by asking you to recall some early memories of your father, characteristics of your father that you recall particularly well, personality traits and such things.

McL - I think, probably, one of the first impressions I keep with me is an enormous imposing physical presence which really carried through to his old age. Really more than he was an extremely handsome man, really quite marvelous, as the saying goes, figure of a man. And this makes quite an impression on a young person, especially a son. Very quiet, benign, good companion. I remember when I was very young, there was a great deal of, I sometimes think that it must have been very tedious for him, though he was interested in railways, as I said to you before, a great deal of going down to stations in London. I remember him being very knowledgeable about railways, locomotives, carriages... Of course, I was with him most in the last 10 years of his life and he was physically quite infirm. Difficult in moving about, move slow, by in large, still quick in mind, easy to reminisce with. As we were saying earlier, he read a great deal. It's difficult for me to pick out particular moments.

JJ - You mentioned earlier that your earliest memories are in (Ernscliff?) in Ottawa.

McL - I was a tot, probably 3 or 3 and a half, but I have some memories, silly childish memories that go with one all one's life. I had a birthday party, so it would have been in November. My father gave me , which I thought was most splendid, a red fire engine. Extremely proud of that. At Ernscliff I don't remember a great deal and I've often wondered if this was a period that he was away from Canada. What was it, the Disabled Commission, I forget the title, but I think it came at that time, though I said 3 which would make it 1918, it easily could have been, say 1919.

JJ - He may also have been in long hours in the Senate chambers or committee meetings.

McL - I was interested in your paper. I didn't realize it wasn't until 1916 that he joined the Senate. Funny, I had some feeling, idea, it was earlier than that. Yes, this could have easily been... and was he not also involved in the Foods Commission?

JJ - Yes, it could have been that. I don't have exact dates here.

McL - I remember him speaking in passing , later on, about having several conferences with Herbert Hoover who was also involved with the U.S. food problem with Europe. Does that ring a bell?

JJ - No, that doesn't ring a bell, but he was involved with the Food Commission. As a father-son relationship, was he a father who would play with his children? In his photographs he is always so gracious. I can't imagine him on the floor playing with his children.

McL - No. Because of the family difficulties that I've explained to you, that because I saw him at least twice a year, when I was younger, after, that is, 1920, it was never under the conditions of playfulness. It was generally public in the sense of being a hotel suite or something like that. And as a comment on his character, I really don't know. I would have doubted it, not that he was an unkind person, but on the other hand, that picture we looked at a few minutes ago, in the white cap and tweed suit, there must have been a less austere side to him , that I myself as a young boy, I didn't see. By which I don't mean that he was a relentlessly austere person, he had enormous charm, the most beautiful smile, and really quite a wonderful sense of humour. His humour was apt to be slightly wry, throw away remarks that were generally always puns, but very finely honed.

JJ - Later in life when you were able to spend more time with him, was he the kind of man, at supper time for instance, would he encourage a lot of conversation during the meal, asking questions of people?

McL - I remember all those lovely summers at Petersfield, or large parts of summers. Conversations, as far as I was concerned, that I had with him were generally before bedtime, as I said, I would spend an hour an hour and a half. And that was when, that I remember, we talked of matters somewhat more serious that we would have talked about at the table. I mean, my own interests and what was happening in my own young life, what I was reading, a few reminisces on his part, as I was saying earlier, of other events or people in his life. This is generally the time he spoke of these sorts of things. Table was generally Katharine, myself, my father, and perhaps one or two other people... it was unmemorable but pleasant table talk.

JJ - At your evening conversations at bedtime, did he give you advice on different approaches to life...

McL - Yes, of the most wonderful sage and Edwardian sort by which I don't decry at all. He had enormous respect for propriety. He felt extremely strong about being absolutely meticulous about business matters, not just in financial matters, but in all relationships one should act with the greatest decorum which he, I think, did and expected the same of people around him. And I bring this in and maybe I interject it, as later on, these were some of the troubles and travails he had at the paper. Do I digress too much?

JJ - No.

McL - I think things went rather wrong, rather badly at the paper.

JJ - Financially you mean?

McL - In management, and I think meaning... I suspect that there were and I can't remember the names... and we'll go into it later because it's an interesting story, but I think a little too long a story for now, but I think he was upset by various dishonours behind his back, goings on at the paper in the mid-1930's. My sister Katharine spoke of this to me.

JJ - His absence in Ottawa and elsewhere would have made these things possible.

McL - Yes. But to go back to his worldly wisdom, it was largely based on that sense of absolute uprightness, do your job well. Really, that whole wonderful list of behavioral things that spanned that generation.

JJ - It sounds very much like what he wrote about his own father as having... I'm trying to get this into a question... He writes about his own father as having great faith in Providence and that things will work themselves out and therefore wouldn't get too exultant if things went well for him in business or too worried if things went poorly for him in business. Did your father...?

McL - I don't remember that specifically, but I do remember a feeling that...

JJ - Did he have a sense of religion, was he a religious man, to put it that way. McL I was just thinking while you were talking about the religious part of his consciousness , if any, and I would suspect that, though I hope I'm not doing a disservice to him, but I think his interest in the Church was ( ? ), honourable, perfunctory. I never knew him to go to church, even when I was younger, even in Montreal. I remember I went, and was very moved, quite rightly, by the window on Sherbrooke St., in the Church of St. Peter and St. Paul, the Episcopalian, is that it? Have you seen it?

JJ - Yes.

McL - It's a big window, a big stained glass window behind the altar, it's in memory of Uncle Bart.

JJ - Yes, I knew that.

McL - I remember going into the church quite often during the years with him just to look, principally, at it. I never remember going to service with him, neither Sunday services at Petersfield, certainly not at Petersfield. I don't think Katharine was a particular church-goer, not that I'm aware of.

JJ - But that's not the same thing as having religious feelings. Institutional, regimental religion is...

McL - Yes, I see what you mean and quite rightly.

JJ - I remember you saying you used to go for walks in the woods here in Massachusetts and in Petersfield and I wonder if he had any feelings about nature which he expressed, that he took great delight in it.

McL - No, no. As a young man I saw that there was a strong sporting thing, with the race boat story. Would you like me to repeat it?

JJ - Well yes, certainly.

McL - Well as a young man on an ice boat, he was the first man in Canada to go 100 miles/hour on an ice boat. He was very pleased with that.

JJ - Well, I suppose, connected with that is his love of speed. Was his desire to run, drive engines...

McL - Yes, with a heavy hand on the tiller which always amused me and delighted me as a young man. As I said, he was extremely interested in my flying, extremely interested.

JJ - Did he enjoy flying myself, he must have flown?

McL - I don't believe he ever did.

JJ - Never going... did he always take the boat across?

McL - Unless he did... unless he flew.

JJ - I was thinking between London and Paris.

McL - He must have, but come to think of it he never mentioned it and he would have because he was awfully bound up in my young aviation career. He was interested in the planes I flew and so forth. And there was that, he... but I must say he never liked to drive a car. I never knew him when... he never drove himself, he must have, I think.

JJ - Well, Katharine seemed to share that...

McL - Oh, yes. She was a demon behind the wheel. A very good driver she was too, very good. Oh yes, the little (Brogady?) races gave her great pleasure. Where were we? Back to more serious things. In other terms, you are speaking in spiritual terms...

JJ - Along those lines.

McL - ...of what impotence lies behind. It is very hard for me to say. I would think not great. I don't think he was illuminated on nature. I honestly... when he spoke of travels, it was always very.. it was always city, metropolitan aspects that interested him. He was, as you know, quite a Francophile. I think he enjoyed those years of research in Paris enormously. England, I think, he took as sort of second nature as indeed it was to that generation of Canadians...from the fact that he had those years in Cambridge and that he knew a great many English people.

JJ - You mentioned earlier that among his circle of acquaintances and friends was Joseph Conrad and Thomas Hardy.

McL - Yes. I remember him speaking in some detail, or in passing, of Conrad and Hardy and Galsworthy. Arnold Bennett he mentioned at one time. I remember one time, the three brothers of the rather extraordinary Beauman family, I mentioned yesterday Captain David Beauman was, I think, a rather close friend of his. Others will come to mind. It was an interesting group. I think what happened in those days, more so than now, was an intermingling of people who had diverse interests but were stimulated and interested in each others topics and...

JJ - Your father's own achievements and spheres of activity seem to be so diverse. First an industrialist involved with coal and steel, then being a newspaper publisher and involved with politics, but not running for election, but being in the Senate and then he has his achievements as an historian and involvements in historic sites development. I read that he was an expert, or very interested in, Italian art. And all those things were so wide ranging and I wonder if he ever expressed to you any thoughts the he wished he could have concentrated on one or the other, or did he enjoy the work of all of these, or he felt he was a person of the arts and of the spirit world as opposed to the materialistic world.

McL - No, he never spoke directly of this to me. I know he took the newspaper side of his career very seriously. He believed a good newspaper should be instrumentally guiding the people and the country...he thought, with the exception of the New York Times, he thought very poorly of the American papers. He couldn't abide secondary journalism. He had scathing remarks about, I'm sure you have them in Canada, though I don't know what you'd call them in his day, but he had a great anger for cheap journalism, he couldn't abide it. He felt terribly strongly about any vulgarity, I don't mean... vulgarity of attitude should have no place in the press. In other words, he had a very Victorian, Edwardian feeling of the necessity of a newspaper to be a guiding light, a guiding principle in the community and I think he tried pretty hard with his own paper. I don't know how successful or how directly... Near the end of his life I think every morning, or nearly every morning, I used to drive him into the office. What was accomplished I don't think was any more than a pleasure to him to be there and various people would come in and have a chat with him, but I don't think he had anything to do with policy by the late twenties.

JJ - But the people he would select as editors or whatever, was he involved with that? Hopefully they would share his views on how a paper should be run.

McL - Yes, and you're on a very interesting subject for me and I wish I could be more help. There was a great diversity in the man.

JJ - The careers seem so distinct. Industrialist, goes into publishing and the same time politics and then goes into research...

McL - There was a curious statement in one of the obituaries which I never heard him speak of, or any of the family- Katharine, Auntie Belle or anyone. There was a statement that he wished to be a philosopher, but bad eyesight etc., etc. Have you any idea...?

JJ - No. I've seen the statement repeatedly in different articles...

McL - What's more I've never...at 50 he had better eyesight than I do.

JJ - Really?

McL - He had glasses and wore glasses to read, obviously, and I hardly remember him wearing glasses other than reading which speaks reasonably well...

JJ - Had he ever indicated that he wanted to go into being a professor or a professional life in that sense?
McL - No, the only feeling about that it was I read. In one of the obituaries I have there's considerable comment that it wasn't until much later in life that he finally got the pleasure he looked forward to his whole life of lecturing and that was in his 70's, I think.

JJ - His first lecture, as I recall, was on Italian art wasn't it?

McL - Yes.

JJ - Is Italian art and his interest in Italy... and one of his brothers had gone there and eventually died there, Willie the novelist, and Petersfield being of the Italianate design, were Italy and perhaps France the center of Western civilization perhaps, or is that stating it too strongly? He seems to be fascinated with Italy and France.

McL - I think he would probably have an automatic feeling that it was from England what was important to him- English law, the whole outpouring of English literature. I think, as I say, England was very dear to him, so dear and so much second breath in nature that perhaps he didn't speak about it. To go to England was hardly traveling , if you know what I mean.

JJ - Going home almost.

McL - Yes. So that for except some things, I would remember him speaking more of his Italian trips and his time in France as one would of a trip taken.

JJ - When he spoke of his trips to Rome or wherever, was it museums he would go to, architecture he would talk about?

McL - Certainly, he had a great interest in painting. He seems to , I'll interject, or we...

JJ - Well there's a few more minutes left then I'll turn over.

McL - Right... Very interesting, touching story apropos really what we're talking about. Katharine and I were in Rome a few years ago. We generally don't do such a thing, but we were limited for time and we were in touch with an extraordinary woman named Miss Sally who is probably the greatest authority on Rome alive, extraordinary woman, but I won't take up time. She would meet us at our hotel and I'd heard her name, but never met her. I was down the lobby waiting for her and she came to the door and stopped and held out her hand and said, "The Senator's son."

JJ - Really?

McL - And I was absolutely bowled over. Of course she knew the Senator, adored my father, knew him very well, traveled all over with him and told me the most extraordinary stories of, again of a great sort of flexibility and sense of adventure that...

JJ - Did you reminisce?

McL- She said they were somewhere and my father suddenly said, "Let's go to Verona!" we'll say, and this lady said that they couldn't, they didn't have money or clothes for a change. She said my father said, "Nonsense! I'll get the hotel manager to cash a cheque and we'll buy some toothbrushes and a pair of pajamas." And away they went. This in a way, is absolutely great fun, but shows a part of my father... they stayed a few days and had a most marvelous trip. I think it may have been with Katharine, but of course I may be wrong, but she knew Katharine. I interject that not as a part of his affection for Italy, but it shows a lively attitude toward traveling that's very appealing and she said they had a wonderful trip. I think, as you said, the primary interest would be architecture, painting.

JJ - What about music, given your own accomplishments in music?

McL - Music, I don't think.

JJ - Would he sit down and play the piano or...

McL - No, I don't think he liked. He mentioned some rather amusing remarks to me, the kind of thing he loved. I can hear his voice now saying, " Well you know, my dear boy, very little music goes a long way, doesn't it." I think the only piece he liked was the Opera Louise and I suspect because of the name "Louise" and he said, "It's rather short, isn't it."

JJ - At that point I'll stop it and turn the tape over.

Tape 1 Side B

McL - Are we back on?

JJ - Yes, we're on.

McL - I was thinking about digressing a little bit. The two things that interested me enormously, music, which he obviously didn't speak of, and never did he particularly remark on the theater which I've always been very interested in. I can't remember him...

JJ - Did he go to the theater?

McL - No. Of course, there again, in his younger days, I wouldn't know. Latterly, in Montreal, of course, there was never a great theater anyway. I remember going to something in New York, isn't that funny, it just occurred to me now that he was very fond of New York, which kind of surprised me because he didn't like big-city bustle, especially when he was older because he had difficulty moving about. I went to New York to study and live when I was quite young, in the 1930's and he used to come to see me quite often in New York. We had very good times and stayed at the Ritz. He had his own room which he very much preferred to others and for some reason he knew the manager very well so that was all very nice and pleasant going. And so as a matter of fact, I think he and I had to go to a theater of sorts. I recall it was not, I wouldn't think, very serious theater in the sense of Shakespeare or Shaw and that sort of thing, probably a musical comedy, a show as they say. But I have no direct memory of him showing any direct interest in the theater.

JJ - But you were saying earlier that he loved literature, both fiction and non-fiction.

McL - Yes, it was probably his greatest interest. He had a splendid library in Petersfield. I wonder how...where it was disposed.

JJ - I seem to recall the Sydney librarian saying that most of his books went to Dalhousie University. I asked why and she said that he must have figured that McGill had enough books and Dal, not enough.

McL - Yes, I know he had a very valuable and impressive collection of French history books - most beautifully bound books.

JJ - In fact, the librarian in Sydney at that point had been a Dalhousie student and had been involved with cataloguing the collection at Dal. and had at that point, never seen a collection as diverse and as rich in quality.

McL - Historically diverse or in general subject matter?

JJ - In subject matter and some of the editions he had purchased were expensive editions of not necessarily rare but high quality books.

McL - That's interesting. One passing comment on the arts, aside from the ... I was going to say apocryphal, I don't think it's apocryphal at all, the intensity of it may be apocryphal. He was quite a fan of the famous ballerina, Karsavina in London. As I say, what intensity this friendship took on, I honestly don't know. It was the sort of thing that he certainly... I was much involved in music for the ballet. In fact, one of the first professional commissions I ever had was a short dance work for the Russian ballerinas in the latter day Russian ballet and he was terribly pleased with that. He was intensely and touchingly interested in my career in music. I gave a series of organ recitals in Sydney, or a couple of them, and he dutifully came. Miss Mooney, the famous Miss Mooney, who always accompanied him when he was out everywhere, just as a physical help, said he was enormously excited, had tears in his eyes, pride and excitement.

JJ - Early 1930's?

McL- Those concerts were 1934-35 in a musty old theater in Sydney. I'm not being scathing about the theater, everyone said it was musty, but it had marvelous acoustics in it.

JJ - Would that have been well attended? It would have been the height of the Depression in Sydney...

McL - I think it was filled with people paying respect to my father. Perhaps it was curiosity, what is the senator's son up to now, so to speak. It went very nicely. Very nice house. I vaguely remember the theater being not very big, only holding... I don't know if its still there... holding 300-400 people.

JJ - I don't now, it depends on which one it was. There's the Lyceum theater which now doesn't serve that purpose at all.

McL - It seems to me it was red, reddish sandstone, very creaky wooden stage.

JJ - It depends on where it was. There is still one standing in Sydney and there's a more famous, larger one in Glace Bay called the Savoy.

McL - I'm afraid I'm rambling off. His interest in my career, oh! we have gone back a while haven't we. He definitely spoke of her and those quite extraordinary days because this would have been more or less the time of the influx of the Russian ballet. He never spoke in a way that made me think he was practically knowledgeable about dancing, but it may have been something he enjoyed quite aside from his patronage of Karsavina. I honestly don't think he was musical, I don't think he enjoyed it.

JJ - But dance?

McL - Perhaps dance. I honestly don't know about theater. How much theater he may have gone to as a young man I have no idea. He never spoke of it.

JJ - He's known to us at Louisbourg as a collector of maps, plans, documents, and so on. And I wonder if he was a collector of art, as well, sculpture maybe?

McL - No sculpture. I remember some paintings, all of them pleasant but not noteworthy. I think he seems to, his fancy was taken often by a rather nondescript picture, but one you could easily see gave pleasure to him in some aspect. Quite a few he gave or lent to his daughter Isabel Farley for the house in Needham, Massachusetts, some quite lovely, if unmemorable. I remember a small portrait of a woman, lovely painting which Isabel told me our father was rather fond of it because it was quite like his mother Isabel, but it had no title and was by nobody of note. Some scenes, some architectural scenes, some landscape. All nice, but I don't believe in any of the family there were any major pictures. I doubt he was very much interested in what was available in those days.

JJ - Was he interested in modern trends in art or more for traditional types of paintings?

McL - I would think entirely traditional. His flexibility, as far as his deeply felt conservatism, his conservatism was most flexible in matters literary, up to a point. I remember him reading, let's say, a Dashiell Hammet or this kind of book, which mild nowadays to any of us, was quite daring then, a little rough going, and he thoroughly enjoyed it. So this was where he was most accepting. I think instinctively, if he were musical, he would not have accepted contemporary music, or particularly theater or I'm sure painting, he would have been very conservative.

JJ - You mentioned conservatives. Did he talk about the twentieth century and can see the generations ethics and morals, standards of behaviors arise of mass culture...you hear of the roaring '20's and speakeasies and mixed dances, styles of clothes, that sort of thing.

McL - Not particularly. He had, or maybe ... should I keep going? I might be getting off the track. All I remember clearly and it always interested me is that on the one hand I think he was intensely chauvinistic about Canada, but at the same time he was very urbane and very cosmopolitan, greatly attached to Europe, as I've already said, and his Cambridge education and attachment to England. I think it was a curious admixture that he felt very strongly about Canada but also had the background and nourishment and broader fields that I think many of his fellow Canadians of that generation did not have.

JJ - Well, I got that feeling from his work in historical site development that he saw the creation and development of historic sites as one way to give what was the young country of Canada and Canadians a sense of pride and identity in their heritage, a desire to create something Europe already had.

McL - Yes, you mean he was strongly affected by the potential...

JJ - Yes, the potential and you mentioned earlier in his newspaper dealings how he saw a need for the newspaper to shape and lead people in the right direction, and I got the same feeling from his historic sites work that one of the purposes of the whole thing was to create a sense of pride and so on in the general public, and a paternalistic sense, that may be a negative way of putting it, but that kind of feeling.

McL - I think you're quite right. I'm sure that feeling was extremely strong, that everything should lead forward to a greater development in a rich culture , richer stability and solidity, including the French-Canadian situation. I think, now I'm really in no condition to comment on, but this wonderfully gentlemanly man at the paper at his place was very much of a firebrand, Katharine told me because she used to point him out to me in Ottawa.

JJ - A strong Quebec nationalist?

McL - Yes, a firebrand, a difficult man. Extremely bright and my father had extreme respect for him. He was one of the few conservatives who got along well with him and I think there was mutual respect which I think was interesting, though I have no right to speak of Canadian politics, especially at that time, but I think it was looked upon as a very good thing that my father was able to get along with this man, and I think because of this friendship that worked between them that it was beneficial politically.

JJ - Did your father speak French?

McL - Impeccably.

JJ - Katharine as well?

McL - Katharine spoke French as she did English - very abruptly, no nonsense and don't fuss too much about it. I think my father was virtually bilingual. I never heard him speak French a great deal, but he spoke beautiful French and he wrote and read it.

JJ - There were a few reviews of his book on Louisbourg by French Canadians and they speak about him, and in fact about the whole family, as being an English Canadian family having a particular sensitivity to the history of France in North America and they greatly appreciated his and his family's relation with Canada. Along the lines of what we're saying, I wonder if he elaborated at all about French Canadians?

McL - Not in any way I could honestly quote. I know very well that he felt very strongly of the disunification of the spirit and the squabbling and the in-fighting and bickering and thought it was damaging. Put really too simplistically, my impression of that aspect of his political feeling was that Canada simply must come onto itself, strong, important and worthy of its pride. He was, like I think were so many Canadians, especially of that generation and I'm very proud it still goes on, he was very suspicious of this country.

JJ - The United States?

McL - Yes. He had the feeling so many had, that were too big, too pushy, too rich and there we are looming across the border, and of course, there is a never ending shadow.

JJ - Though both his wives were American, he grew up in Chicago, lived in Boston for lengthy stretches. He seemed drawn to the United States, as most Canadians are, though they share those fears.

McL - He was very fond of Boston. I know that he was fond of Washington. How long did he live in Chicago?

JJ - Well, he was born in Montreal in 1853 and he says he went to Chicago in 1856 and he remembers the outbreak of the Civil War. He hoped for the underdog, the South to win, but his father said that was wrong, that the North should win because they had the right cause. Then he said his father is back and forth to Montreal and various family members accompany him and then they relocate back to Montreal and then come back to Chicago. It seems that he's there, off and on, 6, 7, 10 years.

McL - Of his youth?

JJ - His youth, yes. Which is where, I gather, he met his first wife in Chicago as a child. The Bradley's of Evanston being family friends, later on they got married.

McL - I think the feeling about this country was purely political, or economic-political. He had many, many, many American friends certainly during his life so I don't think there was any strong feeling. I think it was a theoretical feeling which was part of the picture obviously and... Canada loomed very large for him and most important. I wish now I'd been interested in finer matters of Canadian politics or I'd asked him a great deal more questions that I didn't.

JJ - You describe him as being Francophile and also his being home in England and Canada being a product of England and France, I wonder if he ever mentioned that side as it being a chance to meld the two sides, the English and the French culture.

McL - Well, I wonder if that wouldn't have been part of the French-Canadian situation, that everything should be done to make it workable...

JJ - A workable marriage.

McL - Yes. He thought a great deal about Canadian institutions, McGill. What's the famous school that he went to? Upper Canada College, was that it?

JJ - Had he gone to Upper Canada College? I thought he had just gone to Montreal High School and then on to McGill.

McL - Maybe the Upper Canada thing I'm confused with someone else, I probably am.

JJ - Was he a monarchist?

McL- I would think so, yes.

JJ - Maybe that's something he wouldn't have liked about America, it's republicanism.

McL - That's quite possible come to think of it. I never thought he was a monarchist in any abrupt sense. Thinking of that makes my mind wander back when you asked if he had any reaction to the looming, leering rise of fascism. He was absolutely disgusted by the Prince of Wales defection. This is just the kind of thing that would have irritated him a greatly. It was a typical breach of responsibility for whatever the reason, I'm not going to get into the abdication. To him it was absolutely unthinkable.

JJ - It's the ultimate breach of responsibility, giving up the throne.

McL - He had known the Prince and as a matter of fact I have a picture upstairs signed that Edward had given my father which I have now. And I think he liked him rather because he liked that side of him that was flamboyant, that did the controlled dramatic gesture. What was the one that greatly impressed my father? Oh! The Prince of Wales, right after the war, came out to a hospital to visit the men who were grievously wounded and he made a gesture toward one of the beds in the ward and one of the accompanying nurses and aids said, "No, your Highness, we'll move on." And he said," Why? I want to meet this man." Who, without going into details, was horribly mangled, and the Prince of Wales bent over and kissed his forehead. This made a tremendous impression across Canada and my father, though he was not for the flamboyant gesture, this kind of thing he rather appreciated.

JJ - Well, his own work on the Hospital Disabled Commission and the loss of his brother Bart and his son Hugh. Were these memories that troubled him deeply?

McL - I think so.

JJ - The senselessness...?

McL - He was, I think, without question, more than just a very old man and I don't mean to wax sentimental, but it's a part of the picture of the man, those last years he was a very sad human being, very melancholy. Dr. Sutherland, which you heard me speak of, felt this and he knew him quite well, he was very fond of him. Miss Mooney felt it and used to watch him nodding off, but completely abstracted and I think the whole misfortune of his marriage to my mother was a horrid blow to him and remained so his whole life. He adored his son Hugh, absolutely worshipped him, that was a blow. Uncle Bart definitely was a blow. There were other members of his family that were killed in the war, weren't there?

JJ - Not that I'm aware of , but it's possible. Those are the two that stand out.

McL- On the other hand, one can't, shouldn't, exaggerate this, his life, his life was a good one filled with the nicest type of accomplishment, if not the greatest accomplishment, most just the kind he liked - worthwhile, solid, responsible. So there's something, I mean if you want to contemplate, especially me being his son, what was going on in his mind. But he was a melancholy gentleman and I think he had always been a somewhat melancholy person.

JJ - Did he raise his sons differently than his daughters, as one would expect?

McL - I speak from rather a bizarre position because of the divorce and the fact that I didn't know him until much later in his life, I all at once had to get to know him and he me. I mean, two afternoons a year doesn't do much for anyone's relationship when your young. By which I mean, and I hope as Dr. Sutherland and Miss Mooney said, it meant a great deal to him and it certainly did to me, so this was rather fine, rather exciting and wonderful. Hugh was the absolute apple of his eye and it's very tricky, is it not, to make comments like I'm about to say, but I think he was, indifference is too strong , he was absolutely loyal to his daughters, but Margaret embarrassed him. She was a very curious woman. Katharine was the dutiful one and too close to him, who he was entirely dependent on and that's never a good relationship really and the one I think he was closest to was that firebrand Isabel, who had moved away, was very successful and was by far the most exciting, the handsomest, the livest wire, sometimes to everyone's ( ? ). When my father came down to visit her in Needham I rarely saw him happier. He seemed... he liked the big house and...Isabel had a lot of swagger to her. She did things in a rather high way without offending his sense of decorum. The house was lovely, the gardens were lovely, the servants were splendid and the food was good. He liked it...

JJ - He liked vitality, achievement.

McL - And I think, and you can only guess, this wasn't Katharine's... End of tape.

Tape 2 Side A

JJ - Okay, just as the tape terminated you were mentioning how Katharine was the mistress of Petersfield and was running the place and I was wondering what kind of memories you had of the estate?

McL - Every single one of great pleasure. It was an absolutely, maybe a particularly... it hit in me particular responsive things about what I like about places and even the acrimonistic juxtaposition of the slag heaps down by the water which indeed had a fascination of their own, especially at night.

JJ - On that point actually, did the smell of the steel plant ever blow across the water.

McL - Very occasionally. My father was quite amusing about it.

JJ - What did he do?

McL - He had, someone put a story about, years and years ago, about some visitor complaining and I wish I could tell you, but it was very typical of him, he put the story in a rather wry and amusing way. It was an unlikely wind and, except when it was cold, when I was there generally, I slept in the boathouse as you know, well, there should be no reason you'd know, there was really quite a wonderful apartment down there.

JJ - I've seen a painting of the inside, of the interior of the boathouse.

McL - He used it a lot as a young man. I can remember the marvelous effect when they dumped the slag at night, the whole sky lit up. It was terribly appealing. The house itself was undistinguished, but quite lovely, by which I mean, it was not architecturally particularly appealing, but it was lovely designed, beautifully proportioned, and very well laid out. The studio, last night when we were looking at the slides, was particularly entrancing, it really was entrancing when you went through that lovely garden and then in the (port?) were these two side wings and a foray at the end and I don't really know what the original purpose was, they were good big rooms, the two wings especially.

JJ - Louise used some of that area to paint.

McL - Katharine used the cross one on top, she had the model in it for years. The other side, at one time, when I was practicing a great deal, which was the years I gave the recitals, I'm sure it annoyed Katharine a great deal and I don't blame her, but my father would her of nothing else that the piano, they had a lovely Steinway in the house, it was moved to the studio which was wonderful for me and mercifully for everyone else in the house because of my practicing and I used that wing as a studio. Very simple. It had lovely floors which I remember, Italian tile floors, a very handsome type. And did you not mention yesterday that Louise had a strong hand in the gardens?

JJ - As I understand, she brought together a number of different plant species that hadn't previously been in the area. She was responsible for laying out the gardens.

McL - I wonder if she did the actual planting of the landscaping because there was a great deal of it...it was a very serene garden, very lovely to be in. In the four corners, you can't see them now, there were lovely benches. Not the four corners, but the two corners nearest the house. Everything had a very good touch to it. Reasonably simple, but it gave the feeling of great eloquence as did the house, again simple.

JJ - There was a quote I read somewhere that your father called the oak tree out there his, "Oak Tree Sitting Room." I was wondering if he would sit in the house and gaze out to the oak tree or would he go outside and sit underneath the tree.

McL - It seems to me that I saw a picture, or perhaps it's just me remembering him saying something about the oak tree, that it was quite marvelous, enormous and it spread out toward the house over the driveway and I think you left the living room and went into a sort of tiled foray where one left coats and things and you went down a few steps afterwards and a path led along at that level to the driveway, flanked by a door on each side between the path and the house wall and I think the oak came over that lawn to some extent and he may well have sat out there on a warm day, but I never heard him use that...

JJ - Was there a relaxed, informal atmosphere at Petersfield. I'm thinking the texture of the furnishings and the general attitude.

McL - Just perfect for what the house was, elegant, comfortable. No great pieces in that sense, not (?) antiquarians. Just everything good, very comfortable. I have nothing but high praise, I just loved being there. My sister Katharine, just as I was saying when the tape ended, she ran it very well, very quietly. She probably learned to do it that way because my father had a great dislike for fuss as many of us do, but it was very direct with him and he had a sharp tongue, though a lot of people only saw the benign, handsome Senator.

JJ - What did he get angry at?

McL - Little things, and I guess Miss Mooney had the little story she told. But I didn't suffer from it as did Katharine and the other girls. It was generally little things but he'd get awfully snappy, petulant. I think in large matters he was very self-controlled and very wise in his judgements and now I'm speaking of the big issues. But a ...

JJ - Like untidiness, would that bother him?

McL - Yes, things not in there right place perhaps. He had a funny quirk which I was in no uncertain terms about, tiny little incident. He could not stand the sound of whistling. Isn't that curious? It would immediately anger him. He would say, "Please now, don't whistle."

JJ - You would whistle to him?

McL - Well, I'm no great whistler, but we all do it from time to time. It was simply...I don't know what association and well, no point on dwelling on that, except that as Katharine was running the house, she made a great effort for everything to run as smooth as possible.

JJ - How many people, servants did she have?

McL - There were three girls in the house, a cook and two housemaids and there were a family called Bannister that lived there and was sort of superintendent of the place. I remember he was a nice man, I liked him a great deal. He would come in the really old fashioned manner about 6:30 before we had cocktails and would get his orders for the day, while largely didn't consist of orders, but it was a ritual my father liked. They'd have a little chat and make sure everything was running smoothly, but of course it was Katharine that made sure, not only the house, but well... if the garage roof leaked, Katharine would take care of it I'd say. But I think my father rather liked asking Bannister if everything was all right, if the birch tree at the end of the driveway is all right, that sort of thing.

JJ - I was told it was very cold.

McL - I'm sure it was. It was stucco, very thin walls. I was there in the winter, as you reminded me by my Christmas inscriptions, and it was a hell of a winter. My dear, what a bludgeon, but I don't remember being cold, the furnace was going full blast I suppose.

JJ - They didn't stay the year round.

McL - No, I don't think they ever went there in the early days in the winter. Is there any..?

JJ - The months are indicated in the Petersfield journal, but it's not on a year round basis. Sometimes they'd have skating parties.

McL - Really? Well maybe they did.

JJ - At the same time, they were going on trips annually at that point to Europe, then to France to look at archives for the worst of the winter months and then they're back again in the late spring.

McL - Speaking of jaunts to Europe, an interesting thing came up once, in a way it's a little difficult for me to realize my father was that he was extremely given to saying to Louise, "Let's pack up and go on a trip!" Miss Mooney told me this and so did someone else, the Brainnards in Montreal. In the early days he was very restless and loved to travel and drove Louise crazy by having to cope, which would have been on an even grander scale than she had, the servants and packing and the tickets and everything on which she thought was too short notice on many very quick trips and this would be, as I knew him later on, would be the kind of thing he would not like.

JJ - It's very similar to the story in Rome when they headed off.

McL - Yes, of course it is.

JJ - Restless energy he had just to go and do things. Have you attempted here in your landscaping and your creation of a studio in the barn, were you influenced by Petersfield in your early happy memories?

McL - No, honestly, no there's... which has nothing to do with that enormous pleasure I had there, I really loved it, but as far as this place goes, my joy in landscaping and my interest in it comes principally from this Big House and other big homes and gardens that I was very much aware of when I was younger. And I think on cold rainy days when my father played Patience or a great deal of cards with Katharine, reading, waiting for the rain to stop. Even then the most memories I have are of it being a very tranquil house, very nice life and I believe it always was that way.

JJ - What other kinds of pastimes besides card-playing did they do?

McL - As an old man, none really. Sometimes he would come down and I'd have a chat with him after breakfast. He'd come down at about 10:30 or so and generally drive into Sydney to the newspaper.

JJ - I thought you went across by motor launch boat across the harbour?

McL - In the old days. I never saw it, I don't remember it operating in my day. Maybe it did, but we never took it.

JJ - You went all the way around, long drive?

McL - Yes, it was a long drive if I remember . I think any ferry thing would have been out of the question for him, because of walking. We'd go to the paper and maybe I'd do a few errands or something like that. Out for lunch, a nap for him, very much enjoyed motoring. We'd quite often take a trip in one direction or another, sometimes Louisbourg, it was a set piece, we wouldn't just drive out there, it was arranged and planned. But he loved to go north of Sydney, it was close to Sydney, well in those days, it had quite handsome countryside.

JJ - Did you go to Baddeck to visit the Grosvenors?

McL - We did indeed. Once in fact I remember going with my father and I'd see them a lot because I used to fly up in my little (Dalliop Norpth?) and I used to land in the back pasture of his house. They were kind to him and I enjoyed that household.

JJ - Were they close to your father?

McL - Not very, I think.

JJ - You mentioned Louisbourg. Did he talk to you or any of the family about eighteenth century events, the history of the town, and the sieges, any important events?

McL - No. The best I can say, which is no help to you, well... let's go back to Louisbourg, he didn't point out, except in the desultory way, he didn't point out, as you suggested, this event at such and such a point..., but I do think it was because he couldn't move around. Then in the broader sense at Louisbourg he never talked to me specifically about things, but as I saw in a large sense he spoke of a great deal of interest of the research work he had done in Paris. I remember he used it as a great object lesson. One day I was complaining of some difficulty I was having in some musical study. As he was very apt to do, he would pick a point and make a point and this was that he learned the great art of concentration by his studies in research in Paris, especially as he was dealing with a foreign language. Well, that's the kind of flickering memory that's not much use to you.

JJ - No, no.

McL - I wish I had lots of anecdotes for you of his interests in Louisbourg. And there's no question about his interests, they were sustained right through to the end.

JJ - Did he personally give you a copy of his book?

McL - Yes.

JJ - I was wondering if that had been given with a sense of pride, he was handing you an achievement.

McL - Well, I always thought that his inscription... and I may have really two...(looks for book ). Here's some photographs I'm sure you're familiar with. Forgive me, nobody ever read this book. I mean (George?) and Katharine, some man... Katharine, well they're all a wonderful bunch. Some man came to lunch at Petersfield and went on banging away at a great rate for my father- is it still going because it's a good story?- telling my father what a great work it was and how much he enjoyed reading it and no sooner was he out the door when Katharine said, "Nobody's read that but Dad." This was very typically my father, very precious to me, wonderfully formal, thoroughly heart felt sentiment put in that sort of Victorian, Edwardian way (referring to inscription).

JJ - Might I read it: To my dear son, John Stewart McLennan Jr., My often hope is that his will be a useful, successful, and honored career. John Stewart McLennan, 1934.

McL - There you have in three words which I was saying back earlier on. This was his attitude about a great deal of life, his attitude about Canada, his attitude about, and if I'd thought of it then I could have answered your question about fatherly advice to me, it was centered around usefulness, certainly high honour was a prime, and he hoped for success. As a matter of fact, that's rather interesting coming to think of it in terms of our dialogue that it was a summing up of his attitude. And I have very few letters unfortunately, none that would be historically interesting to you, but I wish, as so many wish, we'd kept letters we hadn't. His letters were usually about the acts of daily life, but one or two were rather touching. When I took over the Big House there was quite a long letter pretty much filled with this, you know, you've got to be responsible, it's a big undertaking, aim high, be honourable with you dealings with people around the place...

JJ - A strong sense of duty he seemed to have had.

McL - Yes, it was a great part of that generation.

JJ - That era. Perhaps his disappointment with the Duke Of Windsor, running off and all those sorts of things... perhaps a relief from his travels, a relief from his normal duties, which I think would be oppressive for one when one is always doing what one thinks one should. Might have instant impulses to take off on a trip somewhere might have been his way...

McL - That's a good observation. Also I was thinking, with considerable interest, that you made the observation earlier that he had been urged to shoot for something higher in the political sky. I agree with you that I don't think he was for it. I don't think even an extremely honourable position of say Prime Minister. I have an instinctive feeling it would have been anathema to him to cope, even in those days, the part of the political position would have been deadly for him. I think his temper, and by that I mean that side of his nature that had a very abrupt streak of temper, almost petulance. It would have driven him crazy the political scene.

JJ - I would think so. The art of the possible doesn't allow any great ideals you can stick to. There's so much compromise and ruthlessness and you have to have all those qualities. It was said that he didn't speak often in the Senate, though when he did he was listened to carefully, a lot of committee work, and I was wondering if he was given to debate.

McL - I believe not. I was always under the impression from older men who were kind enough to spare a few words to a young boy, young, I mean, I was old enough to comprehend what was being said- 15, 16, 17- that they, of course, I can't remember names, but some of their colleagues from the Senate always spoke of his very measured thinking and what a valuable man your father is when judgment is necessary and this sort of thing, which is probably true because this is a method of thinking and deliberation that he admired. Again, it was the anti-fireworks, keep things measured and thoughtful. I'll tell you a very short story of his sense of blissfulness and particular sense of humour. He was on a committee and the committee was meeting and he asked if I'd like to come and of course I said yes. I attended the session which even he said was deadly dull, lo and behold, the inescapable happened and he began to nod, near the end, he was old and it was the last time I saw him in Ottawa, and he nods off. Somebody at the end of the table was reading a paper and made some remark and without looking up said, "What do you think, John?" My father woke up in an instant, realized he'd been asleep and hadn't realized what was going on and made an absolutely marvelous remark. He said, "Gentleman, let us not split hairs." It was a marvelous way of getting an ambiguous out. Very much an endearing, unimportant memory of him. I do believe he was principally a committee man. He was very proud of his senatorial life.

JJ - Was he?

McL - Again, as well, he held the position with great respect and the whole protocol and parliamentary procedure and the actual physical thing of parliament.

JJ - Did he ever indicate a wish to be in the House of Commons or was the Senate the ideal place for him?

McL - I think the Senate was just about right.

JJ - I can't imagine him contesting an election, the hustling, going around shaking hands kissing babies and those sorts of things.

McL - No. I can't. I do remember, we often lunched, sometimes dinnered, generally lunch at the Rideau Club, arch-conservative political hall. After lunch, after coffee, in the 1930's, early 1930's, he almost always engaged himself in conversation with colleagues over some matter which meant nothing to me, but in other words, he must have been consistently, in a slow fashion, interested in his old age. Because I do remember a colleague would come up and say, "How do you feel things went yesterday" or "What's your approach going to be for such and such a thing."

JJ - Were you seeing him year round? Were you living with him in the 1930's?

McL - No.

JJ - How many months out of the year?

McL - Beginning in 1932, 1933 until he died, I say I was at Petersfield for a good two months with a good many trips, to Ottawa for a trip, a couple of Christmas's. He was in Ottawa because it was felt the chances were bad for dad at Petersfield because that one blizzard was rather, I wouldn't say it was nerving for him, but it was such a bad blizzard it was a question of the lines going down and it was felt he shouldn't stay. He stayed in the Chateau Laurier and he had a nice suite there and they must have used that, he and Katharine, because I remember it being pretty much done up with personal things. Katharine had brought up pictures, fathers own dressing table things. Those last years he was pretty much restricted.

JJ - Talking about Ottawa and his sense of duty, he actually dies on the call of duty in an emergency session of parliament. He leaves Petersfield and falls ill and dies in service.

McL - Yes, that's very indicative of that part of his nature.

Tape 2 Side B

JJ - Turn back to Petersfield for a minute, you mentioned that in a previous conversation about Ramsey MacDonald. He had been at Petersfield when you had been.

McL - Yes, I've been trying to sort out in my mind as to what MacDonald was concerned with it, as to why exactly he was there and I'm rather mystified about it.

JJ - Did it seem a courtesy call or had they been colleagues or friends?

McL - I believe it was principally a courtesy call, now I may be getting muddled with another day, a day that gave my father the greatest pleasure. I had spoke of Captain David Beauman and he had brought his ship to Sydney for a cruise. On board was a family named MacDonald who were friends of the McLennan contingent in Louisville, they were charming, charming. Captain Beauman and a group from the boat came and Katharine really put on a bang up lunch and I can remember clearly that this must have kindled memories because it was really well done. The food was delicious, so was the champagne. The company was delightful and he was very fond of Captain Beauman and it was a memorable day for my father. He was absolutely exhausted by evening's end. I think it's in the McLennan book, did you see a menu?

JJ - I don't recall that.

McL - Because we were all there and our honourary lunch aboard the ship and Beauman had been a close friend of Conrad's, much closer than my father had and he gave me a signed picture of Conrad which I have upstairs. A marvelous experience about the picture though it has nothing to do with my father, he had a whole sheaf of correspondence with Conrad which was absolutely fascinating and he had a whole letter, which was almost, in essence, duplicated by another a few months later, which had to do with whether he should keep on writing or return to the (stage?), which was quite Conradian, quite marvelous and he gave me the lesser of the two for a keepsake. Unfortunately, someone stole it years ago, but I still have the picture. Excuse me for that, but it was a good memory of what would be latterly a happy memory of Petersfield for me and my father. Ramsey MacDonald, I don't know, it seems to me he came twice, once for lunch and the next day for tea perhaps. Was he in Nova Scotia?

JJ - I don't know. I've seen his name in the Petersfield guest book and I don't know if he came to Sydney to specifically see your father, or what. Were there daily visitors to Petersfield, people who would drop in?
McL - No, no. I would definitely say not and I would think a visit for a meal was rare, definitely in latter years and those that came were old tried and true. Helen Kendall, Dorothy Sutherland would come quite often and some people from Sydney. I honestly can't remember. Very rarely, what one would say, any dinner parties If I was there one or two summers, there might be what one would easily call a dinner party, maybe twice. JJ- In 1935, at the 150 year anniversary of the City of Sydney, your father was given a medal by Mayor Muggah of Sydney and I was wondering if you were present for that?

McL - No, funny. Was it in the summer?

JJ - Yes, the summer. I'm not sure June, or August.

McL - That's funny. I was apt to be there at least by the middle of June to August. It's curious, that's the sort of thing he would have written about and asked me to come, or maybe not, it was that he was being honoured.

JJ - Was he modest about his accomplishments?

McL - Very, very and unrelenting in demanding modesty from other people. He really felt strongly about this. I remember,...I'm taking up so much tape on such little things, but it's such a trivial matter, but indicative. I remember him saying once that he didn't like the Rolls Royce ad because he didn't think any company should say they make the best car in the world. It was an overstatement and thoroughly distasteful too.

JJ - Other guests I saw in the Petersfield guest book were the Hart House Quartet.

McL - That was largely through Dorothy Sutherland who had been a professional pianist and a very good one and had played and had a very professional career in England as a girl and came to Sydney, but perhaps I shouldn't say, but had made, as was not, in the end, a happy marriage to a Mr. Sutherland, what (rank?) he had been I don't remember. How shall I say, was at best, thoroughly insensitive to what Dorothy was very sensitive about and I think was a typical example of the girl who marries the rather well to do man who has no sympathy together really. It was a pretty long haul for her in the end, but she still practiced and she played beautifully and tried a great deal to get music to Sydney and the Hart House Quartet was definitely her doing because I was there and I remember her speaking about it. They played at Petersfield didn't they?

JJ - I don't know if they played, but they signed in a couple of times. One time with music notes on scale which was clever of them.

McL - I believe they played at Petersfield, and there was one room , the Big Room, which ran the length of the house, perhaps half the sitting room, half dining room and in it a piano.

JJ - Another notable guest from the Atlantic Canada region, and from England I guess, was Wilfred Grenfell, from the Grenfell mission.

McL - Thank you, that's a reminder for me. I remember him well. He always came by boat, I think on his way up, upstream to Labrador.

JJ - Was he an acquaintance or a friend?

McL - I think fairly good friends and Katharine got on with him very well. They had a very animated talk, the sort of thing Katharine liked a great deal. She was... photography, generally interested in nature. Just to go back quickly, I don't think my father was, yes woods, that was practical and it gave him perhaps a little exercise and he liked to pick up sticks and things, but I don't see him as a communer with the mysteries of nature, but I think Katharine more so. She was interested in mountain climbing, all sorts of geological ventures, read National Geographic avidly.

JJ - And the connection with the Grosvenor family.

McL - Yes, and the connection with the Grosvenor family.

JJ - (Bonner Law?) is another person who signed in.

McL - That... I wish I had been there.

JJ - Arthur Meighen, a Canadian Prime Minister.

McL - Yes, I remember, not at Petersfield, but being introduced to him, by my father, I would have guessed in the Ritz in Montreal, but that may have been in passing.

JJ - Did they seem to be close colleagues?

McL - No.

JJ - Compatriots, being in the same political party.

McL - No, I really shouldn't say. It was definitely first name. (?) was mentioned, you've got something rowing in my mind, something about Petersfield, hopefully it will come back.

JJ - You mentioned in the latter years visitors weren't all that frequent for dinner or whatever, but it seems people in the Sydney area speak of Petersfield in such fond, fond memories and you've spoken of your father in that place. Was it a place that people who did come, was it a special event? Was there special effort made for these people to feel at home, to enjoy themselves?

McL - I think largely it depends on what era. I suppose it was at its most splendid and its most hospitable during the early days.

JJ - Up until World War 1.

McL - Then there was so much, if you want to put it simply, on the calendar, there was so much going on in that decade of the 1920's that I was totally unaware of, except by things you've said or things I've read or been told. I didn't even see Petersfield until I was 18-19. That's not quite true. I went there once from Montreal with Katharine and my father for one brief visit one fall. And then I went back and forth, in due course, I suppose, for the opening of Parliament. But I never lived there and I didn't grow so fond of it as I did when I lived there since 1932. And then I have no idea about the 1920's, there'd be some indication of this in the guest book, how intense the social life was then.

JJ - To move from Petersfield to Boston, you mentioned in our conversation yesterday, you mentioned your father lived in one of the houses in Louisbourg Square.

McL - Yes.

JJ - Now there's a family connection with the Parkman family with Edith Parkman being a friend of Katharine and I asked you at the time if Francis Parkman, the great historian, had been a friend of your father.

McL - And I answered with, I believe, by saying yes because Edith certainly ringing a bell as to Katharine's friend though I remember no conversation with my father about Edith's father, but it seems so woven into my memories of either one of them talking about mutual friends that I'm probably safe in saying yes. And he's the sort of man my father would have known and would have taken great pleasure in knowing. My father was a member of the still famous Tavern Club which was the gathering place for all the Boston intellectuals and still is quite a marvelous club. And I think Edith what's her name... may stay... Helen... what was the name of that book we were speaking of?

JJ - Petersfield Destiny, oh, Helen Howe.

McL - Helen Howe, though she speaks of my father's loneliness, I think those Boston years were very happy for him. He always spoke of Boston with the greatest pleasure. When I saw him in Boston later, he always seemed very pleased there and I think it was a good time, even with the sad loss of Louise, I think his general life in Boston was a happy one.

JJ - Well he had spent, before the loss of Louise, he had spent years living in Boston as an agent for the coal company and spent the other time in the Sydney area so he had memories.

McL- So the division of time was really between Boston and Petersfield.

JJ - Well Sydney before Petersfield , before he built Petersfield in 1900.

McL - I think the Louisbourg Square house came a little later in the Boston experience. I think they rented a house. It seems to me I remember my sister Isabel saying the house my father and mother had before they got those places so there must have been some arrangement like that. Another family very much involved with Katharine and my father's life were the Homen's.

JJ - What would he have been involved in?

McL - He was a legal man of some note and yet again the name Edith Homen was right, was a great friend of Katharine, a little with Edith.

JJ - Edith Parkman?

McL - Those Homen's especially stand out. One of the Homen's wrote, yet another vocal reminisce in which nothing... I haven't got it I don't think, about a few remarks about my mother in the Big House, I was wondering if she said anything about my father in those days, I think not. Of the Boston scene that's about all I remember. By then hadn't Isabel married and moved?

JJ - I might have an exact date here.

McL - Because that would have been an added pleasure for him.

JJ - Isabel married in 1911 and moved to Boston. To jump ahead, where and when did your father meet your mother? Is that through Boston connections?

McL - No they, why they meet I have no idea, but I'm always greatly amused by where they met. They met in the famous Cavendish hotel in London, Rosa Lewis. You know of this great institution.

JJ - I don't know any more than...

McL - Well Rosa Lewis, very briefly, was a marvelous (?) and hotel, was a Cockney scullery maid and she rose quickly, like a rocket through the skies, through many boudoirs, many beds. Became a superb cook, cooked for Edward VI.

JJ - Was she the Duchess of Duke Street?

McL - Exactly. And she ran this extraordinary hotel where she padded the bills of the rich so the poor, or poorer people she took a fancy to, their bills were nothing. She was absolutely unscrupulous and a marvelous character and it was just part of the town, Cavendish, and I remember going there with my father. In 1937, he gave me a present which I think I left in Montreal and the old Empress of Britain had a wonderful trip and Rosa Lewis, she was getting older then and falling apart and she didn't make a great impression on me. My father gave me a note for her saying, "Dear Rosa: Please do take care of my boy like you took care of me, but perhaps not quite so well." She was an immense character, but lo, here we are, that's absolute fact, and which I didn't know for years, but I was quite amused.

JJ - Well what year would that have been?

McL - I was born November 1915, and I think they met in London, it might have been the beginning of the war and to be more serious sided about the Cavendish, it was used by a great many. I mean it wasn't all hijinks, though there was a lot of hijinks going on at all times, but it was also used by people who lived a sedate life, and who knows. My father wasn't living a sedate life or my mother for that matter, but I rather think it wasn't too hijinxy. Well it was a favorite hotel of the both of them and they met there.

JJ - They married in January 1915, I think.

McL - Well that gets me under the wire.

JJ - I was wondering how long they knew each other, how many months of courtship they had.

McL - I have no idea.

JJ - You were saying they met at the outbreak of the war which was August 1914, perhaps a few months before that.

McL - August 1914, yes. My father was in England for some reason other than pleasure. I wonder at that time if there was any government...

JJ - Well, he's not in the Senate yet.

McL - Yes, you're right so...

JJ - His book was to be published in 1914, but was delayed until 1918.

McL - Right.

JJ - I always thought that maybe that the Tytus family and the McLennan family had known each other but that's not the case.

McL - No.

JJ - They hadn't met socially in Boston or anywhere else.

McL - I never heard. I think, I've got a mass of material to do with this side of the show, massive stuff, my mother. I should not go into the darker side of things, a lot to do with the causes of the terrible dissension and I think I'll plow through it and throw away what would be unpleasant. What I've read I've distilled and there's very little clue, I'd say this because in that they're might be some mention of this kind of thing you'd asked and I hope you're not in any hurry, I'd hope I could get to it this fall. I would just make a copy, all of the letters in her handwriting, so I'd just copy down any pertinent information on that and send it on to you. There may be answers to things, now I know she was in England a great deal. I remember one of the letters I looked at quickly. These letters were all at (Denbark Mills in Washington Pier?), Mrs. Blisk, a life long close friend of my mother's and these letters are all from my mother to Mrs. Blisk during all their young lives and their early married lives so they're fascinating. She was in London and I remember reading she had a secretary for her journalistic career. She had Swindon's secretary and there's another remark of sitting next to Kipling at dinner, a horrid little man, said my mother. So it was more than family history and fun to go through. So there we are at the Cavendish and I'd forgotten about January. The whole thing was rather precipitous for in August the war was begun. Rob Tytus died in the fall of 1913.

JJ - And Louise had died in 1912 and he had lost his son, no that would have been afterward.

McL - Hugh was 1915.

JJ - That was after the marriage.

McL - The only part of the, and this gets into the extraneous aspects of the relationship between the two sides of the family, Uncle Bart was evidently very fond of my mother. I think he was the only one who accepted this thing at best. I guess there was this inevitable feeling of... the McLennan side was the larger part of the two sides, there were more children, more relations into which (sawed?) this devastating woman and I think immediately there was this natural, often natural, jealousy. But it seems that she and Uncle Bart were generally fond of each other. I know she was very fond of him. He was extremely generous with me the minute I was born. He was very fond of my father, which I understand he was, but then again, because of this "scandal", which was no scandal at all, even in those days.

JJ - With Bart?

McL - With Bart, which my father never spoke about.

JJ - But in his book about his father he mentions he loved to take motor trips with Bart through France.

McL - Yes. I like all he says in the Hugh McLennan book, but he didn't speak much, he spoke of things like what a brilliant, well-known and extraordinary rider and polo player he was and such, but he didn't think it was a particularly natural subject and I have no idea what skills Uncle Bart had to make him so enormously successful in industrialization. I gather he was on every board known to man, both railroads and mining interests. And doesn't my father mention something about Bart's participation in many business enterprises in Montreal which were largely successful? I think this would be rather droll.

JJ - It's such an understatement though.

McL - Yes, I think it would be typically an understatement. Once again, I've wandered, get me back on track.

JJ - Well, I'd like to finish the story of your mother's and father's relationship. They eventually... things deteriorated and they divorced. What year would the divorce come?

McL - It was a terribly protracted thing and I think it was made up of a lot of protracted reasons, but I suspect...

JJ - But you had to have grounds in that era, it wasn't as easy to get a divorce as today.

McL - A dower, for instance, was never mentioned as far as I know. I talked to all of them, now no longer with us, there was an awkwardness because Judge (Homenson?) and Judge (Levinson?) of Boston, the lawyer, was my father's United States lawyer and it was a terribly distasteful position to be in as a great friend of my father having to go into battle, especially in those days for a man in my father's condition, terribly unpleasant. I've talked to him, I've talked to a wonderful man in Pittsfield named Judge Hibbid who was much involved, a lawyer in Washington, a Mr. Baker and from them talking I still was never told, maybe out of discretion for a young person or not I don't know. I never got an adequate reason. But the sequence of events was simply this- that very soon things went wrong, my mother and father were never together anywhere, under any circumstances after 1919, 1920 at the latest because we moved to Washington, D.C. in the winter of 1921 and I was six and had already started the bi-yearly afternoon visits, so things must have been awfully abrupt. Then I cannot, and it's not that I'm being hesitant because of speaking about it, I honestly can't give you a reason of the enormous mess that took it so long . I guess my mother was battling for custody, in fact I know she was and she probably had very little grounds. And I suspect my father eventually gave in, it's the kind of thing that must have been steady. That he had said to her, that it was the most horribly wounding and humiliating thing he'd ever thought in that type of (phase?). Excuse me, I'll take back humiliation, I added that myself, but I think he was desperately hurt because he...

Tape 3 Side A

McL - Just to finish that last sentence, I think he was hurt for two very strong reasons, one was a personal affront, personal sadness. And the other was simply was that he was a man who would simply take his position in the government and his communities, both Montreal, Ottawa, all three of them, Montreal, Ottawa, and Petersfield very seriously and in those days it was no joke, it still is no joke, this thing of divorce and he would feel very strongly.

JJ - We were talking earlier about some people having high political ambitions for your father and your mother may have been one because of her own vitality and her energetic friends, her liberal leanings. You mentioned some of her colleagues and the eclectic people she knew, acquaintances, people like Kerensky of the Russian Revolution and others of equal fame. How do you think...did your father share those aspirations of high office or who do you think the people were who were pushing your father on?

McL - I would think that his interest in higher political office in the sense of the value to the country of Canada and high office, I would think he would rather feel strongly. And I suspect he was not the man for it by nature and I say that largely on first my own direct feeling of his personality and temperament, but also his very various (?) through the years that I heard that there were a group of his colleagues that were very interested in his aiming higher politically and what you just said about my mother is undoubtedly true. This would have appealed to her greatly. She had a combination of glamorous ambition and she loved excitement and she loved, in a very thoughtful way, the power of the statesman and the politician in the good sense. I don't mean the wielding of power, but the effect the statesman can have on the world so I can well believe, no names were ever mentioned, all was put to me was that there were a group and certainly the phrase colleagues was used, Canadian colleagues in the Senate were in the party who thought he should go in a loftier direction.

JJ - Is it fair to characterize your mother as a liberal?

McL - Yes, very fair, definitely.

JJ - And I mentioned Kerensky, were there other names that came to you.

McL - Yes, of that extraordinary colourful bunch of men operating in the world at that time. After Kerensky, she became interested in the whole upheaval in Turkey and we sallied forth for two winters through a large part of Madrid and for two months to six weeks at a time to Constantinople and two we went to Ankara to visit Kamal Attaturk who you know was an extraordinary firebrand and she was fascinated by him and wrote a great deal about him. She was just, to digress quickly, she was greatly interested in a wonderful political conference to which came all sorts of international statesmen and it was literally a discussion group. Claude DeGaulle, the French ambassador and poet came. She lectured at the institute and lectured very vehemently and I gather very accurately and well on the whole Turkish thing because she was fascinated by Turkey, the absolute devil incarnate, more steeped in (branding than in the knife?), but a brilliant political character and she was fascinated not only by the man, but by the extraordinary rebuilding of modern Turkey as she was by Kerensky who was much less in the political reform. She moved easily in this kind of intellectual field.

JJ - Is it the kind of world you associate with your father at all?

McL - No, not particularly. Not nearly in that sense I don't think. I think where my mother sought out men of international fame, he would never have done so. He certainly came in contact with many well-known and famous men, but I think I'm sure he left that affair in the course of his life work. I don't think he would have sought...

JJ - Was your mother extremely left-leaning?

McL - No, I would not say that.

JJ - She was in favour of Kerensky, but not in favour of the Bolsheviks?

McL - Yes, I can remember again more consistent of the thing said in conversation she rather urged us children to sit in on so we could understand. I remember Kerensky at the Big House and my mother saying... she wondered so often could he have saved Russia, not to get into Russian history. So there was this kind of interest, or could he have saved that particular moment in Russian history. Having digressed again I'll come back sharply to the point which was that it was quite probable that she wanted my father to get cracking. I remember, I must say a few words about wonderful Miss Mooney, but Miss Mooney said there were some people in Ottawa, full-time Ottawa residents and friends of my father about the time he married my mother and they always referred to my father and mother, seeing them walk down the street as to the King and Queen of Canada. This absurd remark, I think, was only based on the fact that they were both very good looking people and my mother being six foot one, they were probably quite the pair.

JJ - How tall was your father?

McL - He was six foot three. He must have been taller than her, yes, I'm sure. I'm as tall as he was, fully upright posture. Miss Mooney should be touched on, not only was she very influential, but was a great boon to my father.

JJ - Was she with your father when he was still married to your mother?

McL - No, she came on the scene, I'd say early 1930's. No excuse me, it must have been even later than that because I'd mentioned to you it was of real importance to put on the tape when he and I used to come to New York to visit when I was there and there was no Miss Mooney operating for him. My feelings must have elongated things. I think she must have come along the last five years of his life, something like that, maybe even four. She had been trained as a practical nurse and she was wonderful, straight forward, robust, not a particularly acute background, but a sense of grace. Devoted to my father, devoted to Katharine, awfully nice to me. I loved her and as I said to you earlier, I think she was intent on finding out, perhaps with a tinge of gossip as I say, but I think basically she wanted to know as much as possible about what constituted my father's nature. Thereby, she could be more help for him and she was an enormous help in the last few years, basically as a trained nurse job, looking after his health, dress, shave and she did it all with grace and she was a great companion in public to him. She did everything to urge him to do this and that and how to make himself comfortable and not do too much. She was a nifty person and I know Katharine was devoted to her and did rather handsomely after my father died.

JJ - To move to another topic about the Cape Breton-Sydney area, its coal, its steel, and its people, I was wondering what recollections you had of the area. I know you mentioned the smoke stacks at the steel plant and the occasional smell that came to Petersfield. What recollections do you have and what thoughts and feelings might your father have expressed about the area?

McL - Again, as he did in all Canada, a great interest. I think I mentioned, maybe not on the tape, in those later decades I have no idea if he had any real interest in the plant across the Bay, except for the fact that I now remember having him ask someone in town at the newspaper what, or how things were going, but I think there was no...

JJ - Genuine deep interest?

McL - No deep interest in it. I can say for absolute sure because he took great pleasure in motor car drives, he adored the countryside especially. My directions are poor after all these years, but it would be north, northward. I was explaining last night that I don't know if that's right, but lots of meadowy...

JJ - I guess that would be north. Did you ever travel around the Cabot Trail?

McL - No, I've been there myself. I think I went around the trail with Hugh Kendall in 1972, if I remember we motored around, yes, I think it was Hugh. No, not with my father, I think it would have been too much for him. But we'd take, he'd know all about the back roads when we'd take them, he had his favorite places. I couldn't possibly tell you but...

JJ - Seacoast kind of places?

McL - Yes, seacoast and across the countryside. He had vistas he liked. This somewhat belies what I said earlier about any strong communal with nature . I may be a little wrong, on the other hand, I think an afternoon drive in the car, there were vistas and an atmosphere thing that gave him pleasure. So I would say that like Canada, he was extremely interested in the welfare of Cape Breton and I think aesthetically, there was a lot he enjoyed.

JJ - Did he have a sense of being isolated, do you think, in Cape Breton and the city is a very small community compared to Montreal, Boston?

McL - Never mentioned it to me. Of course, to the end he was never, in a sense, stuck.

JJ - No, he was only there for a few days...

McL - It was like the people who infuriated Katharine and me by saying, "What do you do in that village, it's an absurd outlet." And I think until his old age, really old age, quiet was upon him, it was a nice holiday for him and he certainly loved the place, no question, I mean the house, Petersfield. Right up to the end, I think it was a real... it meant a great deal to him, much more than 3480 Ontario Avenue did. My whole feeling on these parts was a question of our company together, enjoying moving about the countryside and he's tell me a little anecdote of this and that, or a farmer, or when we first came to Petersfield, the flood and the ferries and bits and pieces like that. I think it was a real enjoyment of the countryside.

JJ - Did he ever have much contact with the ordinary farmers or townspeople?

McL - Not in my day.

JJ - The feeling you get is that it was a fairly elite circle of friends and acquaintances that he had- people coming into the area or else industrialists that sort, working in steel or coal industries. For the most part are from New England, Montreal area. He seems isolated from the average Cape Bretoner and the industrialization seemed to happen over night in Cape Breton and most of the expertise was brought in from the outside and one gets the feeling they had little contact with the everyday, ordinary people.

McL - This may have come to pass since my day. I cannot help wondering, obviously there must be some explanation and when I play this tape for God and the world and Sydney I would have thought, except for the duty of Petersfield, that my father would have found Sydney, shall we say to be gentle, somewhat lacking in what pleased him in life, but on second measured thought he had Petersfield, which he adored, he had been brought there for a purpose which I gather he accomplished reasonably well.

JJ - Well, he comes for the coal and later for the steel and actually creates Petersfield at the end of that industrial career and he continued to live on as a publisher of the Sydney Post. He continues to live in the area after he really has no ties to the industry anymore.

McL - Yes, but by that time Petersfield was at least planned was it not?

JJ - It seems to be lived in at least 1900-1901.

McL - At which time he's finished...

JJ - He's winding up.

McL - Well, winding up. I think the sequence of events does in the end make sense. What he found, what I meant was lacking in Sydney was compensated for by the fact he had done a good job there, he had Petersfield, a building which engaged him greatly and then of course the paper. And just because I and perhaps some other people don't find Sydney enormously appealing, have no bearing on his life there. It was what he liked...his family, and from the guest book, the entertaining must have been splendid.
JJ - And his historic sites work.

McL - He seems to have many devoted friends from the town of Sydney.

JJ - Do you ever recall him mentioning HM Whitney, who was the Boston financier who had come up to put together the steel plant?

McL - Just my thoughts... I can't help you...about what I read in your paper. That kind of flickering memory is a combination, either Katharine or my father or a combination of the two, through conversation I might have been privy to hearing.

JJ - Actually, my general point was, was there a lot of reminiscing by your father about his early involvements in coal or steel, any of his areas?

McL - No, he wasn't much inclined to that. I wonder what his nature was...he didn't like to talk much about what he was involved in. I wonder if he approached that side of his industrial life, not with disdain, obviously, that would have been part of his nature, something he would have felt duty bound, for whatever reason, to do well. He wasn't really terribly involved in it, I think this may have been a part of his feeling, if you have a job you do it well, you do the best you can. That part of his life may have been something none of us knew about, unfortunately now was how much of the Italian art, the writing, lay behind the man, the philosophy, moral sciences as I recall.

JJ - How much had he been forced to suppress his interest in that temporarily while he had to tend to these other tasks?

McL - You know, I wonder... and it was very indigenous of his generation that he may have felt... he had to at his father's behest duties to do- his brush with the grain business, the coal and steel. And that it wasn't in his nature to say," I'm going to be a moral scientist, or a philosopher." It's possible. It's interesting.
JJ - I want you, for a minute, to talk about Katharine. You mention her as running Petersfield and her other capacities. I wonder about her involvement at Louisbourg, whether you have memory of how important that was to her?

McL - My memories of Katharine's involvement are very strong and they were absolutely unswerving. She seemed to be constantly engrossed in some aspect or thinking about Louisbourg and of course those early years when the model was in the studio at Petersfield that was a great source of constant, constantly speaking about it. I remember going in there to speak, she was constantly making something or painting something. She was totally absorbed by it, fascinated by it.

JJ - Was her interest in that regarded as perfectly normal by her sisters and other family members, or was it a little eccentric?

McL - I don't know about Margaret, well, she sort of lived in a world of her own. She was very musical and rather (?). She was by far the softest natured of the three. Rather looked like a handsome picture or painting on a candy bar. She was the smartest as far as hair, always beautifully done, and the gowns she wore, she wore lots of chiffon and white blouses. This went on for a stretch. And she had this wonderful contralto, rather booming, but well controlled voice. I used to come here on the (?), but she pretty much knew her way around. Isabel would be more inclined to say, "Oh, Katharine is fooling around with that model again", or, "Where is Katharine? Probably out in Louisbourg." But I think she was very proud of that and respectful of that she acted with my father and after my father died.

JJ - Katharine must have had a strong sense of continuing and accomplishing, implementing the work her father had hoped for, strived for, over the years.

McL - I think so. There was a curious thing about Katharine and my father that was very much brought to the surface in our talks. My father, probably because of his age, and Katharine, probably because of her temperament, did not talk directly about a given thing. I saw Katharine constantly after my father died, principally at Isabel's. She'd go down at least twice a year for a long stay, perhaps a couple of weeks. Not entirely soliquious, but in any case, they tried hard. But I'd have lovely visits with Katharine and I always asked about Louisbourg and she rarely gave me a direct report. For instance, pleasantly like, "Things are going very well." I'm being hypothetical in cases like this, but never anything direct like," Oh let me tell you, you'd be very interested in this." It wasn't her nature or maybe she felt I would be bored.

JJ - Was she like that on other topics as well?

McL - To some extent. I think it was a reluctance to get serious about serious things, though she was a very serious person. And I don't mean she was flip about things. She played the fiddle quite well. Perhaps I shouldn't say well on the point of violin playing, but she played, well we played Bach together. She painted fairly well, she was an extremely good photographer, she did latterly. She did some awfully good, again going out and getting the most contemporary lens and she got one of the first lenses they developed to take things up close. She was fascinated herself with making flower studies and this sort of thing.

JJ - Now, her mother had done wild flower studies through her painting.

McL - Yes, but all those things, she didn't dwell on profoundly. She was probably modest. Combination of shyness, modesty. She may not have talked about music with me because I was more musical, might not be interested, whatever. She was deferential to , not without, I mean, not that there wasn't good stuff in the woman, she was excellent, but I think her inclination to shyness, deference, would may have given a feeling about wholly not interested in telling her hopes.

JJ - What she would like to do.

McL - But absolutely an insistent interest in Louisbourg.

JJ - I see a note here, makes my mind flash back. You were talking about your father earlier and how music didn't seem to move him, however, he was interested in art. I meant to ask you, if you have time, did food and drink interest your father? Was he a connoisseur, a gourmet?

JJ - I'll start with one thing that always amused me and... he had a great knowledge and always demanded the best mustard. Funny, funny memory I have of a waiter in the Rideau Club getting quite a sharp tongue because the mustard was improperly mixed or quite the wrong seed. I tell that jokingly, nonsensical whimsy. He said that he had a very weak head and he never could drink very much. I guess the glorious Hugh, the young Hugh, had a very weak head and got all sorts of (?). Incredible story my father told me. Hugh and a friend of his set an old barge on fire and set it down the Bay.

JJ - When was this, in Sydney?

McL - Now again, my father's sense of sport, he was pretty serious, he thought this was awful. It was not filled with coal, so I remember my father saying, don't think too badly of the boy because it was a wreck. It had to be scuttled. It was an expensive prank.

Tape 3 Side B

JJ - In that letter he's talking about a restaurant in Paris and their menu and the cost of food and so on in comparison with his earlier days. I believe he wrote a letter to the editor about the restaurant and it sounds like a person who cared about food deeply.

McL - I'm sure I'd see every reason because I may have had at some time made him appear, especially at Petersfield, things were simple and comfortable for them, handsomely comfortable, it's quite true. But he had enormous appreciation for things luxurious, using the word in the right sense. His wine was always excellent at Petersfield. He had a curious routine in his old age. He had one martini before lunch and supper, dutifully stirred by Katharine who had one too, sometimes two, more than two. At lunch they had a bit of scotch whisky in a very tall glass of water and at supper he had a fine glass of champagne.

JJ - Not a dinner wine?

McL - He had champagne after the meal. Yes, generally a wine, of which he didn't drink very much. I have no reason to doubt in my... he may have had a light head and maybe he never did. He always enjoyed what was good, but I... what he drank in my presence was had in Montreal, Ottawa, Boston, and Petersfield, but my lengthy, drawn-out answer is yes. The other thing is food, and I don't know, food at Petersfield was serviceable fare.

JJ - You mentioned earlier about the Ritz in Montreal, being there with your father in his 70's and 80's and still having an eye, an appreciation for an attractive woman. You mentioned some quote, I forgot what you said about beauty..."My God, what a beauty."?

McL - Oh yes, he was given to saying... oh, what was the phrase I used because it was verbatim... "Most extraordinary, handsome creature, my boy, isn't she."

JJ - It comes to mind for some reason I associate wine, women, and song, but he didn't like the song... another thought that came into my head was that you had mentioned earlier about your own choice you had to make when you were 18 or 21 to become either a Canadian or an American, which bears some relation to what you were saying earlier about your father, his hopes for Canada, his desire to do anything for Canada.

McL - Yes, precisely and I think that it was a ... I never had any feeling that either because he honestly thought it or he was sparing my feelings as a young man who had been making an important decision, which I had to make myself legally, for none could do it for me so to speak, and I had to appear in person before a judge and state my piece and morally state yes I will be a citizen of the United States. He was very kind about it, but I'm sure he was, it was a sadness for him because he, at one time, had outlined to me what he would like my Canadian education to have been. Pretty much following his own in fact, certainly McGill and Cambridge and that was obviously denied him and I think again it was tied into that he had missed the opportunity of being with me in Canada as a Canadian. Of course, I did not say yet that I indeed chose to be an American citizen. I think it really was the greatest influence that I was brought up here. It seemed the natural thing.

JJ - Did he try to influence you?

McL - Never. He was impeccably fair as I said and, to everybody concerned, to all people, including my mother which he had no need to be, as fair as he was to me. And it was a faultless performance, in no way intruding or whatever he thought about it, he never brought up what might have easily been, if not necessarily embarrassing, but would have made things awkward for him. Things would have been hard to answer. Never at all, not a shade of this. No mean incriminations about anyone else's decisions about my life, very fair. My older sister was head of this household. Her decision of where I went to school for the conservatory in Baltimore to seriously study music. He took, though easily it might not have been the sort of thing he would have done, he took in absolutely good faith and I think this was very commendable side of a very apparent part of his nature that he put faith in people that he thought had a right to act.

JJ - Extremely strong sense of decency and fair play.

McL - Great sense of this. So when I chose to be an American, I think he half expected it. I think in a way he would have wondered, I mean, it would have been hard on both, particularly on that particularly perilous path I trod all those years if I had chosen... I didn't know Canada very well. In a curious way, there was some unpleasantness that had lingered in my childish mind. I don't know quite what they were, but it was the other side of the coin. But principally and obviously, in fact, this had always been my home. In fact, I was born here and it naturally fell into place.

JJ - With music being your chosen field, the opportunities are far greater, in every respect, in New York or Boston.

McL - Yes, that would have happened if I lived in Timbukto, but I think basically it was for those eighteen or... it is of some interest to me... have you any indication... when do you cease to be a minor in Canada?

JJ - It has recently been lowered, but in those days it would have been anywhere between 20-25.

McL - In Sydney it wasn't 25. I think it may have been 21, so it would have been 21 years of uninterrupted life in this country from which sprang all my youngest childhood memories. I think that's what lay behind my decision.

JJ - Well, I think in terms of topics I previously outlined, I think we've touched on most of them, some on tape and some previously. And I'm wondering at this point, perhaps we can touch on some topics later on, but if there's any final...

McL - How much have you got left on the tape roughly?

JJ - Oh, several minutes, 5-10 minutes.

McL - There's always been something I've been interested in and I forget, perhaps you can help me. I've always been interested in my father's role with the paper. I again, I came on the scene late. I thought he'd always been treated with respect until one incident I'll tell you about. But it was a perfunctory trip every morning, just, I think, probably to make himself feel good. I've never known about his editorial policy in the early days when he was active. I know there was a lot of bad feeling near the end of his life and you would probably know of the name, I think he was managing director of the paper and nobody liked him. A younger man and he wrote me personally suggesting that I write, a most complicated, hopelessly foolish thing to do, that I write somebody and try to influence my father to get somebody fired so this man could, obviously a big scandal and I thank heaven he had the wit not to send this directly off to my father because it was, I think, in the last couple of years of his life and I knew full well it would upset him terribly. Miss Mooney said, "Thank God you didn't." I did tell Katharine and she said, "Oh! What an outrageous man and terrible!" I don't remember his name and if I did I shouldn't say it, but I honestly don't , but he played some big part in the paper and my father never knew about it. Katharine told me later.

JJ - I have yet to go through the Post Record book so I don't really know and no one's written anything on the history of the newspaper. The newspaper itself still exists in Sydney and consistently spells your family name wrong when they spell JS McLennan or Katharine McLennan, they always put the "a" in it and they seem to have no sense of heritage. They don't have pictures of their owners or publishers. But what little I do know is that it's around 1900 that he purchases the Sydney Post, it was conservative. There was also a liberal paper at the time in Sydney called the Record and they later amalgamated, purchased outright, and became the Post-Record, and now it's the Cape Breton Post. And I've seen in a couple of newspaper pieces that appeared on Katharine in which she mentions she never went to school, that he had a series of tutors, governesses.

McL - That runs in the family.

JJ - Some of the tutors she had were editors or newspapermen and she mentions some of them by name that worked for her father. But that's in an earlier period from 1900-1914 or so.

McL - I wonder how serious he was about that newspaper side of his activities?

JJ - Well, I think you said the fact he went in daily in the later years, like talking to the caretaker, it was a duty he wanted to perform and he had to perform.

McL - Yes, I think there was a certain amount of that.

JJ - I assume he used... editorials appeared in the paper about the Louisbourg story, pressing for government action to acquire and develop the site and so on and obviously I think that's him using the paper as a vehicle to achieve an end that he's...

McL - Yes.

JJ - Which is perfectly understandable.

McL - Sure is.

JJ - I'm really curious to go through the paper and see what sort of view the editorials had about the development of the trade union in Sydney and attitudes toward industry and other problems, just to see if there's a consistent attitude there.

McL - Well yes, because I'd be very interested because, as I say, I knew his interest was consistent but he never talked to me about policy, except for the fact, and I don't know if it's on tape, about abhorrence of bad journalism.

JJ - Yes, you mentioned it.

McL - Other than that, he never, that I recall, remarked on what his own policy on running his own newspaper was.

JJ - Well, in at least one of the obituaries on him they talk about his being a newspaper publisher and he made the Sydney paper one of the most respected of newspapers in Atlantic Canada. Whether that's the kind of thing people write in obituaries or whether it's a fair assessment.

McL - It would be interesting to see what you find if you have the time to see...

JJ - Well, it intrigues me, that and his industrial career that precedes it, it seems to be a complete blank, no documents survive, nobody seems to...

McL - Even in the...company documents are so far gone now that...

JJ - Well, some were destroyed deliberately by later owners of the steel industry, want to cover their tracks, I don't know.

McL - Well again, it's very hard to think of my father in any really rough and tumble bad news steel company in-fighting. It seems inconceivable to me. It must have existed so much in those days as now, but maybe he was in a position where he could observe these troubles and perhaps could do something about them, but was essentially removed.

JJ - I don't know. Certainly there were a number of takeovers and competing coal companies and so on. Whether, or what his involvement was in the rough and tumble business deals I really don't ... Well any further thoughts?

McL - I could go on... have you any other ideas on things?

JJ - No, I think...

McL - Not that we can't go on later, it's just...

JJ - I think that covers most of the topics I had and a few I came up with since, some of which you've been extremely helpful on and other ones which you wouldn't have knowledge about because he hadn't mentioned to you or whatever.

McL - At the moment I can't think of anything, but maybe we can both think of something to touch on later, some aspect, something may have sprung...

JJ - Absolutely. It may be just that we're both talked out for the morning.

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